Leslie Venetz – Sales Team Builder – How to Grow a Sales Team in a Renewal-Based Business

Quote of the Show

If I could pick one [KPI], it would be the number of qualified meetings kept. I think that's a pretty solid one, it sits in the middle of the funnel. It's pretty quickly after some of that marketing, and sales dev activity, but it's right at the beginning of your AE picking it up before that handover. I think that's an incredibly important one assuming that we're in a renewal-based business.

Key Takeaways

  • Emails must be short and hyper-personalized with advantages, not features.
  • Take advantage of free resources that connect you with folks who have been in the sales game longer than you for external perspective and community.
  • Books to read: The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, The Transparent Sales Leader by Todd Caponi, The Challenger Customer by Brent Adamson
  • KPIs for a renewal-based business are based on clients who are most likely to renew, so look at which industries and revenue bands are most likely to continue, and if they are renewing flat or with an increase.


Revenue 96

[00:00:00] 1, 2, 3, 4, sales, marketing, and Rev. It’s sink or swim out there. And yesterday’s strategies and tactics won’t help you today. This is Revenue today and I’m your host, Jared Robin. Join me as we interview revenue leaders in our community to learn what steps we could take right now to help you scale yourself and your company.

Revenue today is sponsored by Rev Genius, and we’re on a mission to bring inspiration and creativity to all revenue professionals in the world.

Wanna shout out our sponsored demand base. Demand based is smarter GTM for B2B brands. They help marketing and sales teams spot the juiciest opportunities earlier and progress them faster. By injecting account intelligence into every step of the buyer journey and orchestrating every action. For more information about demand-based, [00:01:00] visit demand-based dot com.

I’m joined today with Leslie Venet, an awesome friend and a great seller. She spent 15 years in the C-Suite enterprise selling, opening big doors and penetrating some of the biggest logos like at and t, Kraft Heines, Walmart, ExxonMobil, JP Morgan, Verizon, and Target. She went from that to be a three time head of sales ramping SDR teams from zero to 24 and six months in so many other experience thereof.

I’m excited to, to learn from her today. Welcome. I’m so happy to be here and I’m so intrigued to see how many rabbit holes the two of us go down during, during this record. It’s gonna be a challenge if we keep it. I’m gonna put the under on 10 be, I’m gonna be generous. I like that. I like that a lot. . I, I think it’ll be under 10 as well.

If you said the over under on 10 and [00:02:00] said over that would be something else. But, so all, all these big logos that you’ve closed are the ones I’ve read off aren’t traditional SaaS. How did you end up in software as a service? I, because people said there was more money in it. Am I supposed to have like a better answer?

Like no, because I thought there was more of an opportunity to help people. No, that’s not it. I. Like well into my career, and don’t get me wrong, like I had, you know, been a six figure earner for, for many, many, many years, and I started talking to people through our LinkedIn community who were in sas, who had less experience than me.

Frankly, some of ’em I was very confident were not as skilled as me in the sales arena, blowing my earnings out of the water. . So I was like, I I would like to, I’d like to be a part of that to tell me more. So really it was the opportunity to earn that first attracted me. [00:03:00] And, and this is fascinating cuz the, that, that’s for a lot of people, right?

Like, and, and having that stable income, but so you hop in, what then, what was, was it fast earnings? So I hopped in and so, so something happened at the same time as I was growing my LinkedIn community and getting more visibility into what was happening in SaaS. I also was the number one employee at a startup, not a SaaS startup, but a startup.

So it was like this exposure to startup culture and the startup world at the same time that I was being exposed to all of these opportunities in sas. And I. Just thought it was fascinating. Having spent my entire career really, like within the Fortune 500, within the C-Suite, it was this opportunity to not just sell, but to explore this alignment between, you know, like marketing and sales messaging and like, you know, the whole rev ops [00:04:00] alignment, whatever buzzwords we’re using for it now.

And to get to be creative in how I communicated with buyers in a way that, prior to that I’d never had the flexibility to do, because I had this notion in my head that it was like, you’re communicating with a Fortune two 50 cfo, you better, you know, keep it pretty much on the straight and narrow. So I, I just fell in love with the opportunity to be like, more creative and more exploratory and, and place these big bets.

E explain some of the bets that you placed. . Yeah. I mean, a lot of ’em and the creativity you had because Yeah. because when, when, and, and when I think of sa and, and we’re gonna go into, you know, scaling I think of repeatable processes, I think of boredom, because it works. Because it works, right. I do not think that repeatable processes and creativity are mutually exclusive.

Okay. And certainly [00:05:00] like my sweet spot has been organizations that are going up channel that have realized they need to do outbound. So in like, inbound is not my sweet spot. PLG is not my sweet spot. I, I do a lot of it, but like, really outbound and up channel is, is is where I live and, and what I love.

And I, I feel like in that lens, Partnering with startups who are willing to throw a, like a gif or a meme in an email to use video to have a text message touchpoint, to write a handwritten piece of, of, you know, direct mail out to go outside of those very traditional, like we only linked or we only email, or maybe in addition to email we do like LinkedIn and phone.

Like those are the three channels that everybody is pretty comfortable using. And still to this day, not as many companies or, or sales leaders as you would assume, are willing to just a test and be [00:06:00] creative and be silly. And so I think that you can create those repeatable processes, but do it in a way.

Is fun and playful. I like that quite a bit. And, and let’s dive into your experience, you know, scaling an SDR team from zero to 24 and six months. How hard was that? You know, they paid really well, . Did you just hire 24 people or, or I, I hope that you had certain criteria to hit before opening the checkbooks a bit more.

Yeah, it was actually a really, really, really rigorous hiring process. And so in, in that role, I was launching North American operations for a UK company. So what I didn’t have to do in that job was, you know, like the M v MVP create the, the brand. I was just doing the North American go to market. And which, which was this, was this at a digital reach or No, this is a company whose name I do not use because they are terrible people and I refuse to give them any airtime.

[00:07:00] Fair. . But my team was great. I loved my team and I was sad to leave them. Took many of them with me when I left. But it was a really, really rigorous hiring process. But we had a huge pool of talent because, I mean, this was like eight years ago, and they were paying at that point a, like a 50 k base, 80 k o t e for an s d r role, which like, I mean now people are like, what?

That’s nothing. But eight years ago that was like big money for an s d r role. The, the roles just were not. That prevalent are making that much money. So we had a huge pool of folks to hire from, and I’m a huge fan of hiring from non-traditional backgrounds. So I wasn’t caught up with, I have to hire people with at least two years of SDR experience.

So hired like a lot of, you know, former athletes, people with theater backgrounds is one of my favorite directions to go. You know, teachers, people that were coming out of the hospitality industry. [00:08:00] So I think the, the combination of being able to attract a huge candidate pool and then removing some of those artificial gates that we often see in sass was, was critical.

It was amazing. Yeah. Now you mentioned two things that might not be connected as well, because people trying to get into sass are more likely to not need that top dollar, unfortunately, right? Like, do you think , you would’ve had the same success without the best salary at the time to give, or the best comp plan, I should say.

With, with, with your idea of hiring outside the box, yes. But I think it would have taken longer to grow the team that I wanted to have. Like I was, I was lucky to have an extraordinarily like, high caliber team of individuals that were you know, I hate using like hungry to learn, but like, they were, they were excited, right?

Like they were curious, they wanted to grow their [00:09:00] careers, they were motivated you know, by those opportunities to, to learn help all that, that good stuff. So I think. , I wasn’t able to have such a big pool and then as a result, be like super selective with my hiring. Yeah, it would’ve been harder to get the right people in the, in on board.

It would’ve taken them longer to ramp, it would’ve taken longer to create the right culture cuz there would’ve been kind of the bad seeds. So yeah. But I, I frankly think it was easier because it was such an attractive wage. Yeah. So, yeah. Some good takeaways here. So were you able to ramp people from outside of SaaS really fast?

So fast? Like, like super easy. So clearly the first step, if we’re breaking it down, it sounds like getting the right people in the door first and foremost. And, and whether you have the best salary or you could figure out the right people and, and, and the best [00:10:00] pay in this case helped you do it so fast, right?

You would’ve probably been able to figure it out anyway. But how, how are you able to ramp n this, this is the million dollar question, not traditional SAS people fast. Yeah. So a couple of things I think made a huge difference in, in this particular role. When I look at the SDR role, it like, it is transactional.

Even if the, the thing you’re selling is not a transactional sale, even if it is a, you know, huge, long, expensive sales cycle, whatever the SDR role really is more of like that 24 hour sales cycle, like mm-hmm. , most of the time you are getting the decision maker on the phone. You’re setting the meeting on that call.

So I, you know, I think part of it is just the nature of the S D R role that you can get wins quicker than if you’re ramping an AE team. Yep. Part of it was that we were selling to business owners. and having come out of just having sold to the [00:11:00] C-suite for like eight, nine years, the accessibility of business owners truly blew my mind.

I was like, oh, these people just like respond to emails and answer the phone like this, this is amazing. So that, that was certainly a part of it. That it, they were an easier group to reach than I was used to, and they were they required less nurture. They could meet faster, like the, they just had shorter sales cycles, I think, because of who the persona was.

But at the, like, the crux of it, I think Jared, is that we in sass tend to overcomplicate things, I think often to make ourselves feel special or feel better, but like SASS isn’t, it’s just a billing model. Like it is literally just, we’re just selling a subscription to something. And so I, I think because I wasn’t bogged down in some of that like [00:12:00] gatekeeping or maybe some of those mindsets, I very much walked into it being like, we’re just asking people to pay like a couple hundred dollars a month for, for access.

Like let’s pretty easy value prop, let’s get on the phone. So I, I, I love that. And, and but times there are changing. Eight years ago I was able to manually write an email and I remember and literally might have been more like nine or 10 years ago, granted, but one out of 10 would book a meeting and they’d be big companies, right?

Because the data was a problem at the time. Not anymore. It’s a commodity now. Sales engagement platforms, we’re new. Not anymore. It’s a commodity now. And, and, and ev and, and personalization didn’t even exist, which bogged my mind 10 years ago. People were just like, come meet with me. So if you were personal and you had their data, there was like literally a 10% chance they would meet with you.

It was crazy. [00:13:00] Today that number’s a decimal. So when you go into accounts today, your clients, what’s the biggest disbelief that you see going on right now? The biggest disbelief that I see. Or, or the biggest thing wrong? They need the first thing fixed. Yeah. I would say that it actually is on the point of personalization and.

I think like folks now embrace that personalization is necessary. But what I see too often is that personalization means to them that the things that you were doing a decade ago, that I was doing a decade ago that was like, hi Jared, I see that you work at company. Right? And like that, that worked and that worked well.

I, I, I said, hi, Leslie. I see that Pizzeria Uno’s around the corner from you . I was looking at like Yelp reviews and that your brother and my sister went [00:14:00] to Penn State together. Okay. I love that. That’s a lot of what we were doing at the Rollway ramp, the, the sd. It was crazy. I’m going to be in Palatine next week meeting with so and so.

I see you’re two blocks away. We should stop in . Right. But I think the thing that’s happening now is that folks are, are having trouble distinguishing between meaningless personalization and what I refer to as hyperpersonalization, which is personalization that digs a couple layers deeper and that actually matters.

And I think the easiest way to distinguish them, Through value and relevance. So if your message is adding value to that prospect’s life and it is relevant to them, then you’re, you’re probably doing a good job with personalization. If your personalization is, hi Jared. I see you went to college. I also went to college.

Let me sell my thing. Or, hi Jared, I see that you [00:15:00] are the founder at Rev GeniusX. What was the craziest sequence you dove into? When I say craziest, what was the funniest sequence you dove into when you took over or, or were hired by one of your clients clients to be Rena remain nameless, clients to remain nameless?

Oh, I don’t know. I don’t think any of them were funny. Were just like really sad. And you see it sad reps, sads, ok. Too sad. But you see it in their reps. Like the, the reps want to do good. . And they’ve obviously like often been given these like legacy sequences that the company’s been running for years and they don’t work, but they’re being told that this is what they have to use.

Mm-hmm. . So yeah, I’m not, I mean just generally like really, really bad ones. And it’s like the typical type of bad where the emails are like five paragraphs and [00:16:00] it’s like 17 bullet points. Just all the things that we know now scream, this is a sales email and I did no research about you before sending it.

But I also write a lot of stuff from scratch because I work with a lot of people that are like, oh snap, it turns out that we really need to do outbound properly and stop sending like, you know, one-off emails here and there and figure out what is repeatable now. Once you f figure out the value prop, are you putting it into all networks or what’s, what’s the next step that you work through with clients?

Like their, their value prop? Yeah. Like it, it sounds like their messaging, I should say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then what, how, how, how do we, how do we get to a point where their team’s performing and they could hire more? Well, first, I, I run this like a way step back, but first I run a really old school workshop on fabs.

I don’t know of people listening are, are familiar with [00:17:00] fabs. What is fab? The feature advantage, benefit model is this like ada yeah. Like literally that ultimate ada. Yes, yes, yes. It was referenced on a call y. And you were like, okay. Okay. But the gist of it is so, so, so powerful. And for everybody listening, like I I I challenge you, I beg of you to look at the copy that you’re using to look at the, the way you’re communicating with your clients and see if you can do a little bit better.

So most copy that we get in our inbox, it stops at features, right? It’s just kind of a feature dump of, of what they offer, what the product does better. Copy will get to advantages. So it’ll be like you know, we have a seamless user interface feature that allows you to work more quickly advantage, but then they stop.

The really, really good compelling copy gets all the way down to the benefit. Like, we have a seamless user user interface that allows you to work more quickly. Customers share that. It allows them to bring [00:18:00] 20% of their time back into the business to focus on more meaningful strategic work. , you know, EBITDA goes up by 3%, whatever it is.

So like really walking through exactly what benefit they can expect from that feature, from that advantage. So I found that to be an extraordinarily powerful workshop to go through, even with people that are doing pretty good copy cuz it takes it from like good to great. Are you gonna do a fab exercise now?

We’ll, we’ll do you wanna do? Sure. Rabbit hole Two three . For those keeping track, this might be rabbit hole one. Isn’t the whole conversation about rabbit holes? The first rabbit hole? Ooh, . Now we’re in that metaverse, but yeah, well, I think like folks should, should do the fab exercise and I’m sure they can find us in the, the community, you know, on LinkedIn and revenues if they, they wanna [00:19:00] talk through it.

But it’s, it’s a powerful one. And then your actual question that I didn’t really answer yet was like the what? Yeah, the, what happens next? I do a combination of, of writing the copy and then also ex explaining to the team why the copy is so counterintuitive. Because if they’ve been writing these like, really long emails thinking that they’ve been using personalization but not really using personalization maybe they’re still doing some of the old school, like, would you rather meet at 10 or two on Tuesday type of stuff.

You know, unsolicited calendar links and, and so often I find that the teams are like, I got, I got an unsolicited inbound. From a sponsor request, from an AE title. So I looked him up and on LinkedIn, he was somebody that I disconnected with for trying to sell me there. So those that are listening, the unsolicited requests is a top pet peeve with the, the calendar invites [00:20:00] and stuff.

It is, it’s just kind of, anyway, so that, that, that was, that was a, a, a slight rabbit hole and now we’re back. But I mean, it shows like how committed people are to these old school techniques and it, I think like the narrative that happens so often is, but it works. And what I often have to do as a reset is like, sure it works, but you send out a thousand emails and you’re getting 10 meetings.

Yep. So like, sure it works. It got you 10 meetings, but what if you can send out a thousand emails and get. a hundred meetings, 200. Like what? Like, just because it it works doesn’t mean that it works as well as it should. And it doesn’t mean that it’s putting you in a position to connect with your prospect base in a meaningful way that’s gonna like catalyze them into wanting to give you time on their calendar or, or give you their attention to consider buying [00:21:00] from you.

So, so often, oddly, it’s like a, a mindset shift versus like a hard skill teaching them how to use it thing. I’ve been saying this for a while. Outbound appears like pickup artistry where you’re trying to trick somebody into meeting with you. , you know, I hear it, but the new way is just the shift is away from that.

In, in, in, in, in just drawing true connection. That’s I update, I updated my LinkedIn headline a couple of months ago based on a comment I actually wrote. And the comment was absolutely it’s our responsibility to talk with our prospects instead of at them. And so now my headline is, you wanna talk with your prospects instead of at them.

I’ll, I’ll help. But I think that’s the crux of it, is that so much of our copy we’re just kind of like word vomiting. We’re talking at people and it’s like, why the hell should they care? A hundred percent? Now, once, once you get the copy right, [00:22:00] are folks going on the phones with the same, the same copy or script, or how does that connect with the other channel?

Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty rare that I work with folks who don’t do phone touchpoint. Cause I’m just such a big advocate of using the phone and of, of cold calling. Mm-hmm. . And it’s really like, what’s old is new again. And those connect rates are, are increasing as our inboxes get more and more flooded.

But I write them as full sequences. So it would literally be like, y you know, like day one, triple tap, like LinkedIn invite to connect. Like, here’s a couple different script ideas. Like, here’s your email script, here’s sort of the framework that we want you to use for a phone call. I prefer frameworks and like helping people understand why they work or how to use them versus set scripts.

Cause I think set scripts really take a lot [00:23:00] of. . Like the fun and the personality. Yeah, the joy of selling away. I used to be like a, hi, this is Jared. Do you have 27 seconds? I can’t, I also can’t with a permission-based opener. Like no hate to people that do it. It’s just so misaligned from my sales personality.

But like, that’s the perfect point, right? Yeah. Like if, if I, I think it’s like, it would feel gross using it, but somebody else would feel gross doing like a direct like, reason for the call based opener. So like, let’s give some examples so people can communicate the value and the relevance without feeling like they’re robots.

Couldn’t agree more. You know what’s funny? I, I think exactly like how you are, but like, when I give like, demo cold calls or something, I find myself using permission based on like my. I’m like, wait, gimme an example. Gimme an example. Like, Hey Leslie it’s Jared from RevGen. Is that, does that, does that name [00:24:00] ring a bell?

Be like, no, I’ve never been on LinkedIn. You know, my life . Right? There’s some things that I can lean into that others can’t, but and, and, and if you know what’s weird, if I didn’t lean into that, it might be weird, right? It’s like, whoa. Like, but too, like presumptuous that you’re like, it’s Jared from Rev Genius.

No, no. It’s Jared from Rev. Genius. No. Are you familiar with rev Genius? No. This is what it is. Like, the reason I’m reaching out is because I saw you sponsoring. other communities events, and I thought it made sense, but that’s a reason for a call. That’s not a permission-based opener. Oh yeah, yeah. You’re right, you’re right.

Some sometimes I go into and, and part of me, I’m doing two things here. Yes. The reason for my call, I like the, are you familiar? I like that opener. Like, how familiar are you? Are you familiar? I think those work, what doesn’t work for me, it works. If they might actually be familiar, like, do you wanna roll the dice and see why I called or hang up on me?

Now I’m like, bitch, don’t you hang up on me. What’s, what’s [00:25:00] what’s, you know, I, I once got a cold call from, I don’t wanna say the name of the C but it’s one of the dialer companies and, and it was by the book, like how I’ve heard them do it, and I’m like, yeah, keep going. I’m like, no, it’s not a fit. But thank you.

Like this was awesome to listen to. What was, what, what, what, what’s your most interesting cold call that you’ve gotten? , you know, I’m like not important enough right now to get very many cold calls, which is a blessing. I just started like, which is a blessing. I’m not complaining. Boat spiral, like most interesting maybe about my car’s extended warranty.

I get those all the time. It’s like a kind of an insider like TikTok joke, like I’m just calling about your car’s extended warranty. I don’t have a car and I get those calls. Hey, I l I live in, I live in downtown Chicago. You think I’m gonna pay for a parking spot? You’re outta your mind. You know, I will actually, I will go the opposite direction cuz I’ve certainly had some that [00:26:00] I’m like, like what?

Who trained you? What are you doing here? I can tell you’re doing your best. So I’m not gonna pick on you, but like, good lord, this is terrible. But I have on my voicemail, That I don’t check my voicemail, but feel free to text message me at that’s this number for an immediate response. And so I’ve started getting some folks, I mean, some people just still leave the voicemail and I’m like, I, I told you the channel I wanted to, you know why they do that?

They do that to Mark calls. Yeah. Because they, because they, because they can market in the crm and, and it looks like there’s activity. Yeah. But I, every single time somebody does a text call with me, I respond in a timely manner. And if there’s any possibility that it’s relevant, I will schedule a demo with them because I just, I love so much that they are probably willing to like, go outside of their set structure a little bit and that they are most importantly listening to the customer, tell them the [00:27:00] channel that they wanna be communicated on, and then like, respecting that and, and doing it.

So shout out to people that are taking that extra step. Now listen. So now listen, and, and, and as you laugh, that’s like one of the core tenets of sales. Like, just listen empathize, slow down. Don’t be salesy, but okay. So you get the messaging with With your client down and or, or, or your company, your scaling, when is it time to hire?

Assuming you didn’t get around to funding and you could just hire Yeah. When is the time? Yeah, so I’m, I’m really lucky to work with this company called Sales Quia. And it’s, it’s very much like all folks that are kind of in that like seed series A bubble. And so many of them come to us asking the question like, is it time for me to start hiring?

Is that the [00:28:00] next step in scaling? And the, the sort of rule of thumb that I think most people follow, I don’t think like I made this up or sales poll, I made this up. Is that like once you have your, the founder has closed the first 10 sales Yep. Then it’s time to consider. hiring, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re ready to hire.

And it’s not like something that we’ve come back to a couple times during this conversation is like building out those repeatable processes. So I think like how, who’s responsible for building them out? This is a great question. Is it, is it the founder? Is it the first sales hire? Is it somebody later?

Does the founder have a sales background? Probably not, right? Very few of them do. Okay. I did not build that or I did not build that or sales process the re Well, the reason I ask is because very few of them do, but I think often founders will try to build out sales processes, but they do it without a sales [00:29:00] background.

Mm-hmm. , which I think is kind of disrespectful, like this is a craft and a profession. But like, I get it, you’re trying to do the most with the least. But I think more importantly, they try to build out sales processes when they’ve closed 10 sales with complete control of the product roadmap and the price point and almost certainly from their network.

Yeah. And, and, and I’ll tell you what, right now interjecting a bit, I’ve closed deals because people like know me, like it, whether they’ll admit to it or not. I see, I see it moving way too fast because of that and, and me playbooking my process. is not giving credit to how hard it could be. It’s going to be harder, it’s gonna be more different.

Now, I don’t have an investor network, but there are some things I could show people how to lean in into community, our community and, and build their [00:30:00] brand within our community. I think that’s big. But for me to create a playbook, there’s too many nuances. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then, not to mention you have, you have like the, the certain day where you need money that you just drop price.

That, that’s nowhere in the playbook. To just bring money on that is not . That that page was like, definitely like burned and, and like sent, sent off. So I mean, I, I think though, depending on the type of model you’re running, like if you’re running a PLG model, I don’t think like you’re a marketing person should be your first hire over a salesperson.

Like I think that if, if it was my money and my budget, I would build out marketing first. Yeah. And sales second, if you are not running a PLG motion, if you are like immediately trying to go up channel or you just know outbound is going to be a, a huge part of your, your lead flow, my first hire would be a full cycle ae somebody who.

Is comfortable building processes. So like, not somebody that [00:31:00] just came out of a career thing, like somebody that’s kind of been like in, in the ooh snap, in the nitty gritty before and is comfortable like building out those processes, testing, iterating and then you hire that person knowing that as you grow maybe in a year and a half, two years and it’s time for them to silo, they’re probably gonna be like, I don’t wanna get siloed.

I like creating and growing and you, you know, you might have to part ways with that person. Always do. I think you hire above that person. always. Yeah. But yeah, that like founding ae who can, can build processes and who can, who’s like really comfortable with getting it wrong as well, and like not having the answers and just having to, to test and iterate.

And certainly that can be done in partnership with the founder, with the founding team. Right. But yeah, I, I think a lot of it falls on the AE with the expectation that they’re being provided, the support and the tech stack [00:32:00] to move as fast as they can now. Full cycle ae it’s something coming back. For those that are as ancient as Leslie and myself, I won’t group you.

Maybe that’s a little presumptuous, but you mentioned eight years ago, so let’s, let’s go with that. Be like elder, millennial crowd. Let’s, let’s go with the elder millennial crowd. Wow. My younger self would, would love me now. Devastating. Yeah. a full, let’s be real. A full cycle AE is better at one of the two parts of the full cycle.

start in general, you have exceptions. What would you optimize for? More booking meetings, you know, like qualified meetings or? , someone that could close and that might not be able to, somebody that could discover, do all of that. Yeah. That, that might be noticeably lesser at booking meetings. I would optimize for top of funnel, like somebody that is an exceptional prospector, somebody that’s exceptional at booking qualified meetings [00:33:00] that stick.

Because you can bring in a second voice on demos or if you have a longer process. Right. You can, in that founder voice, you can bring in a second voice to support the ae. Yeah. Like what an amazing opportunity for that ae to then grow some of those like consultative skills, flex those muscles. But 1000% top of funnel would, would you ever believe Oh man, like a later in their career person could be the first full cycle hire we’ve seen too.

Sure. We’ve seen too much ? No, I don’t think so. I think it depends on what. Brings you joy. Like what? Right. What? Like, I’ve hired, so like, really, I’m gonna date myself, but my, like, first job out of college, I moved into a hiring manager position super quick, like six months quick. And happened to coincide with the great recession.

And so I was hiring folks who watched their entire savings, their entire retirement [00:34:00] just disappear. And they’re like, huh, cool. I’m 65 and need to go back and, and get a job. But they didn’t, they didn’t really want like a career job, right? Like they wanted a job that they could show up to Monday to Friday, eight to five, like do the work and, and then be done.

So this, this opportunity was, was, it was an ISR role inside sales role. So it was like full cycle, but very transactional. And some of those folks were, except. Exceptional because they had this like, depth of wisdom and experience Yeah. That allowed them to connect with folks in a way that early career professionals can’t.

Like they just simp, they simply don’t, don’t have that yet. So I think as long as it brings them joy, they can be exceptional at it. And, and I couldn’t agree more speaking from experience. But you know, you, you brought up a good point. The experience brings a level of connectivity to prospects. [00:35:00] Mm-hmm.

understanding the nuances. I can’t write down in playbooks that person can a bit better. Right. How do you think somebody younger in their career could figure it out faster? Right. Like tho those, those, the new like, like how we hopped on a call and like we, if we had something the other person actually needed, we would buy from one another.

like, how can we Pretty sure I technically bought from you yesterday cause I bought your idea. Technically you did see free 99. The idea was, I was listening . But e exactly. How, how could somebody get into like, just like honestly connecting, understanding needs. Yeah. No. Yes, there’s an ulterior motive, but like, it’s so buried the other person wouldn’t even know.

So I think like, like broadly, if you’re an early career professional Yeah. I like beg of [00:36:00] you to take advantage of the insane wealth of free resources out there. Like I, I like, I genuinely can’t even imagine. , how different my career trajectory would be if I had things like LinkedIn or like Rev Genius when I was a fresh graduate, like freshly moved from Chicago to Montana with no network, with no sales experience, with like, no real understanding of like what the heck it is I was supposed to be doing in, in a corporate America job.

And, and looking at free sales communities or even like, I, I pay for a number of sales communities that I think are, are a good value reasonably priced that might not be in the budget if your early career, but like look for those opportunities to connect with folks that are currently doing your job or have done your job so that you have that access to external perspective and you have that community.

And then I would also say take advantage of all of these free certifications and [00:37:00] courses. out there. Like I, I do at least a few of ’em every single year. Whether it’s through something like a Udemy or a HubSpot or like sales, whatever it is. Like the, there are real ways that you can both learn and also make your resume a lot sexier because it, it shows that you’ve put in the work, it shows that you, you don’t have, have these skill sets.

I think those are two like super, super practical ways. And then the much harder way, something we’ve already talked about is you just have to actually listen, like deeply listen and listen to learn, not just to hear. And that’s, that one takes a lot more practice. . I, I read a book once a few years ago and it actually helped a little, but it, it, it’s osmosis for sure.

Now wait, what was the book? Oh my gosh. Was it, you’re not listening. It’s not, you’re not listening and, and I know you [00:38:00] want to read it. It was in a library, an audible that another founder had, and I wasn’t a founder at the time, and he gave me access to it that I no longer have access to it. And it was the most obvious title, but it was all about like empathy and like how listening is the beginning of empathy, but like, like actually digesting it and feeling it and, and how to go deep and like make sure the other person knows that they’ve been heard.

And it was a super cool book and it was a lightening and, and I definitely learned from it, but I clearly forgot the name. Speaking of. , you have a book club. Like what, what, what? I put the Chris Voss book aside. Everybody loves that book. No. And technically you’ve bought for me because you agreed to be a guest on my book club.

So you know, this, this, this doesn’t have to be a zero sum. We could both blend, we’re buy into each other’s goals, aspirations, ideas. Yeah. I mean, reading it, what book am [00:39:00] I most excited about? Is that your question? Yeah. So what, what prompted you to this? Like this, this is amazing. Oh, that’s actually a really, a really good question.

Probably more interesting than the actual like, concept of the book club. Everybody gets that. Yeah. I think the book I’m most excited to read is you’re of Yes. By Shonda Rhimes. Okay. But all of them are really good. But what prompted me was s seeing this trend in, in 20 20, 20 21 of like a need for speed when it comes to consuming information.

Mm-hmm. . And it was really, really, really evident to me on LinkedIn cause I was reading like a bunch of data about the algorithm and something that they say to optimize for is content that people save because that’s going to boost the amount of people it’s pushed to. But the psychology behind why people are saving it is what was so compelling by hitting save on that TikTok video [00:40:00] that’s teaching you how to overcome an objection or how to cook something or how to do a dance.

You’ve tricked your brain into thinking that you’re most of the way to having done it. So you get that dopamine rush, just the simple save. And it really got me thinking about how much of that we see on linked. as well, where people are voraciously consuming these posts or, or you know, even people’s like courses or this white paper, whatever it is.

And we’ve gotten so caught up with consumption and so caught up with ma even bragging, like I read 70 books last year, I didn’t. That it’s like, it’s more about how much we can consume versus what we’ve done with that knowledge. Like how are we using it? How are we testing it? How are we figuring out whether or not it works for us?

And so I really wanted to marry my love of reading books and consuming knowledge was something that I knew at my core to be super important, which was really creating [00:41:00] a, a call to action to use what you have read in a meaningful way. I love that. Do you, do you have non-business books? In the club. So last year was like pretty much all sales books.

Yeah. This year it is more like business acumen books. So then the one we’re doing in March is the Motivation Myth, how High Achievers A Like Truly Achieve their Success. Then we’re doing like a Brene Brown Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Seven Effect, seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey.

We’re doing your, you’re Not Listening by Kate Murphy. Mm-hmm. . And like the Shonda Rhimes book I mentioned. So it’s, I I didn’t want it to silo it to just salespeople. And I also think that sometimes salespeople get maybe too bogged down and like, I’m gonna do this course on objections, or I’m gonna do this, you know, this playbook on [00:42:00] writing copy.

When some of the most important skills that I see, and tell me if you agree or disagree, but the, the skills that I see in like elite top performers, people that show up in that top 10% of the dashboards throughout their entire career, it’s just as much soft skill as it is hard skill, maybe even more soft skills.

So I really wanted to focus on books that I thought would allow people to like dwell in those soft skills. I love that. And I couldn’t agree more. I’m reading a book now that y you know, the only. Challenge I would give back is that those are very soft skill around business oriented reasons. Books versus just like soft, to be soft or like learning about life or some like untethered soul, I mean, to be softer.

No. And, and, and, and I don’t mean it like that. I mean, there’s some awesome books like the War of Art. [00:43:00] Mm. I have it. Which is spectacular. Yeah. That’s inspired me more than any of this Seven Habits or five Dysfunctions of a Team. I like that book. It helps. But what I find is the true changing of, of myself is, you know, I, I, I post about this going inward and stuff, but like, not reading business books.

Mm-hmm. , right? Like reading. I, I used to have a rule that I wouldn’t read three business books in a row because my head would explode. Two would be like the max, and then I’d have to read, like, it could be a business inspiration book, like Shoe Dog or something. But I couldn’t read Seven Habits of The Seven Habits, Chris Voss, and and Fanatical Prospecting three in a row.

I, I wouldn’t retain anything. I’d die. Do you find that? Yeah. Yeah. I see, I see what you’re saying. And maybe that’ll [00:44:00] be, maybe that’s the inspiration for like the, the evolution or like the 20, the 2024. I want to do it. I want to do the, the War of Art for you all. I, I’m reading a significantly deeper book right now.

But the War of Art is fucking good. Yeah, I actually, I was in Costa Rica a couple of weeks ago and I spent a, a few extra days just to think, and I saw the guy at the pool next to me reading it. Yeah. And was like, oh, what an interesting title. And he told me the premise of it. And then I went and looked it up and was like, oh, this looks amazing.

So it’s, I can see it’s, it’s my, yeah. So, so to those listening find the books that the people going on vacation in the place that you want to go to are reading verse the books, people that aren’t go on vacation. maybe. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t know what I was, oh, I was reading the memory of police, I think.

Nice. At the time I read, [00:45:00] I mostly read fiction. Like I’ll, I’ll read like 30 to 40 books a year. Okay. And it’ll maybe be like, if I read 40 books this year, it’ll be 15, like kind of non-fiction of any variety books and then 25 fiction books. I’d like Voraciously consume fiction. What kind of fiction? All kinds.

I in a real moment this weekend ripped all of the books off of my bookshelves and then completely reorganized them. I had friends in town and they were like, what did you do last night, Friday night? And I was like, I reorganized my bookshelves with a glass of wine. I will not be taking questions on just one.

I read a . Just I read a lot of historical fiction. I love historical fiction. I think it this like amazing way to put yourselves in the shoes of people that lived in other cultures at other times in a way that is, to me, often a lot more relatable than reading just like a history book or [00:46:00] a biography.

So like an Elizabethan times drama. ? No, the war. Okay. I, yeah, I have like war, war, time fiction like both World War I and World War ii. I ju I just find like in incredibly compelling, cause it’s also like recent history, right? So you’re like, like 19, 20. Like, that doesn’t seem that long ago. Like, I can’t believe that a hundred years ago this was the, the type of life that people were living in, the sacrifices they were making.

Particularly because I think it’s so easy for us in our current timeline to be like, the generation has never had it harder. And like, dude, I get it. Like we’ve had, right? Like it’s tough to have like come out of college right? During the great recession to have like been in the, the prime of our career and you know, been, been hit by by Covid.

But it’s, I think it’s a. reading historical fiction for me is a, a good way to like bring myself back to center and realize that all times are both good and bad. And I read a lot of murder mysteries. I [00:47:00] have a real thing for Agathe Christi, a whole shelf of Agathe Christi. And I read a lot of fantasy.

That’s old school murder mysteries. Respect. I love Christi. That’s like, I think I might have read her when I was in high school. probably. You probably had to. And I’m just over here like . You’re like so how do you think reading if at all, makes you better at your job? Like, like reading far out stuff.

Like not reading a manual, an SOP on how to do your job. I’m saying reading off the cuff stuff. I, I, it makes me a better human, so I know what makes me better at my job. I can solve any mystery with the drop of a hat. , of course, I’m a better human. I, I, I help the police . But like, I, seriously, I think it’s twofold.

One is that reading for me is a hobby that is like very much rooted in self, in self-care. [00:48:00] I’m, I’m able to shut my brain off, which that’s very, very hard for me to do, but it is something that I can wholly focus on and be in the moment with. And you know, particularly when I read fantasy, there’s also like an element of escapism.

So it’s like, it’s reading for me is truly an act of, of self-care. But I also like, you know, going back to the historical fiction, it is this opportunity to. , like, grow some of those empathy muscles and, and picture yourself in somebody else’s shoes, even if it is, you know, loosely based on history. Which I think is po It also, I, I say a lot of really weird words as a result of reading so much like, turn of the Century literature.

I said to my husband the other day, like, something, something, if you do that, you’re gonna be in Big Dutch. And he was like, I am sorry, I, I’ve truly never heard that phrase before. What are you [00:49:00] talking about? And I was like, big trouble, big Dutch. That was from a book? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to look it up afterwards.

I was like, everybody knows that, Chris, what are you talking about? And then I looked it up and it was like wet, fell out of popularity and literature in the 50. And I was like, cool, cool. So just definitely something weird, I say from how much turn of the century literature I read. But yeah, I think it, it expands my mind and it also really gives me this like, incredible opportunity to to, to quiet my mind.

What, what, what are your, if, if you had to recommend three books to somebody scaling their sales development department, whether it’s related or not, what would you, what would you say? . Okay, so first I’m gonna go with a fiction one. It’s, it’s like my, my favorite book that I’ve read probably in the last decade.

It’s a fantasy book called The Name of the Wind, part of the [00:50:00] King Killer Chronicles. And I just think everybody should read it, even if you don’t like fantasy. If I asked you any answer question, that would be the answer. , it’s, they’re right. It’s just, it’s beautiful. It’s beautifully written. Yeah. But if you’re trying to scale your company, what have I read recently?

You know, Todd Capone’s new book is really good. It’s the follow Up to Transparency Sale called The Transparent Sales Leader. Nice. I think that one I’m like looking at my book. Do you like both of them? Quite a bit. Transparency Sale Salem Trans. Yeah. How, how do they compare versus like Gap Selling or Fanatical Pros?

Fanatical Prospecting is like, just prospecting like crazy. Yeah. So I think those books are, are more of a roadmap. Okay. Right. Like you look at Gap selling and Keenan’s, like very much laid out a roadmap of like how to gap sell. If you wanna become a gap seller, here’s how to do it. Yep. It’s a sales process.

Yes. Whereas Transparency Sale is more like, here’s why it’s important and how it works, [00:51:00] and some examples of how you might be able to incorporate positive transparency into your own process. Even like a perfect example for somebody scaling is that like having only five star reviews in g2 Yeah. Actually would make you less palatable cuz people wouldn’t believe you.

But if you have a 4.8. , which means that you weren’t perfect cuz we’re not perfect. And that you had customers that were willing to say, you know, actually these were the things I loved about it, but these things didn’t, you know, these functions didn’t exist or this was, was not right for me. It makes people feel a lot more empowered to, to make, to believe that they’re making educated choices cause they think they’re getting the whole story.

And transparent, transparent sales leader is of, of, I think in that same vein, like here’s why it’s important and here are ideas of how you can incorporate that type of transparency into your own life. But it’s less of a here’s the method to follow. And, you know, my all-time [00:52:00] favorite sales book, hands Down as the Challenger customer.

Hmm. Like every single SD R ae full cycle AE I S R customer success. Like I don’t care if you’re in a commercial function and you haven’t read the Challenger customer, you are doing yourself an injustice. How does it differ from the Challenger Sale? I’ve only read the Challenger Sale. Most people have, a lot of people are like, I didn’t even know there was a follow-up sale.

I knew it was there, but I was kind of lazy with it. It’s incredible. So Challenger customer is very, very seller focused, right? Like, how can, how can we sell better? How can we challenger Sales is seller focused. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Challenger sales is very, very sales focused. It’s very like in internal sales focused, whereas Challenger customer is very, very buyer focused.

And the the, the sort of through line is the, of the book is how can you communicate with your customers in a compelling way? Like how can [00:53:00] you create those real and genuine connections? that help them understand why they should buy, like what, what’s in it for them, but you’re not selling to them. Like you’re helping educate them on, on why they should buy and then helping guide them through that buying process in a really frictionless way.

There’s some incredible examples in there for, from densely is one of ’em in Xerox is one of them on how they had this like amazing go-to-market for new products and both of them fell fall flat. And by doing this exercise of, of it’s like that fabs exercise of not just selling the features and not stopping at what’s the advantage, advantage of those features, but really understanding like what’s the benefit that sits behind them for this specific persona.

And then rebuilding their GTM on that like completely changed their ability to have a successful gtm. It’s. So a, a fa a deep [00:54:00] fantasy book. . I like that. . And then two sales reps or two. That’s leadership book. That’s what I wanted. K KPIs for, for sales leaders. What, what do you think are the most important, if you had to pick a, a top three?

Okay. Revenue . Is that a cheat answer? Well, I don’t know. I mean, like, do you believe the revenue is a leading indicator or a lagging? Like if you just focus on revenue, are you gonna get more revenue? That’s definitely a lagging indicator. I don’t know. I feel like my relationship with KPIs ha has grown increasingly complicated the more time I spend in sales.

So I, I obviously deeply believe in data backed decision making. So I think KPIs and, and metrics are hugely important to a business. I also get really worried sometimes that because it’s something like a k p can be so easy to measure mm-hmm. that we spend too [00:55:00] much time focused on the k p and not focused on like the intention behind, like too often they become that check the box activity, right?

Like that person that leaves me a voicemail instead of sending me a text message like I asked because they need to hit that 30 voicemails a day. K p think so understood that that might not be your top, but like there, there, there’s gotta be a top metric, right? Because mm-hmm. Cause there’s something that guides every business to success if you optimize it.

Yeah. I, I mean if I could pick one Sure. It would be number of qualified meetings kept. I think that’s, That’s a pretty solid one. It’s like in the middle of the funnel, right? Like it’s pretty quickly after some of that like marketing, sales dev activity. But it’s like, you know, right at the beginning of your ae picking it up before that, that handover.

I think that’s a, an incredibly important one, assuming that we’re in a [00:56:00] renewal based business. Mm-hmm. , I mean, obviously you want to see incredibly high renewal numbers. I mean, I think, I think e even like, like before, maybe the past five years, cuz I’m a net new logo person. Like I, that’s what, that’s who I am.

That’s what I, that’s what I love the most is, is that those are the rock stars. Right. Well, but that, like, that’s, that’s why I have, I feel like I have such a complicated relationship because really I don’t think I understood. I bring on 3 million a year and our company is a $1 million company. Oh boy.

Well, it’s like, okay, great. Like awesome, Leslie, you closed a million dollars in revenue last year. And then you look at the customer success team and they’re managing a book of business that’s 30 million. Mm-hmm. . And so like, I, I think I got maybe earlier in my career, so caught up with how sexy net new logo is, right?

Because we do get the accolades and we do get all the money. [00:57:00] That I was not putting enough emphasis on renewals and just the, the criticality of building a sustainable business. And with renewal with renewals, you can make a strong argument. And I had Mark Robert on that, that debunked the myth of in revenue of most people think renewals or a function of cs.

and product, right? Like most people think like those two are like the main drivers if something will renew. And he said it’s a function of sales and to you know, bringing the right deals on bringing the right clients on, bringing on people that could actually use the product versus one cycle. And, and, and how he compensated towards that was he was, he paid sales, a [00:58:00] higher commission on the second deal, closed with any client.

So like, you could, you could game the system Leslie and your first deal could be a thousand dollars and your second deal could be a hundred thousand instead of the other way around. And he’s like, great, great because like it helped greatly with N R R. Okay. I I love that. That’s such an interesting I insight and it was a myth obviously.

you could take it or leave it. No, no, no, no. I, I like that. And I’ve never heard that before. And I always love new, new bits of information, but then I think that that brings me back to that initial k p I of qualified first meeting. Cause I’m, I’m thinking about a recent role where I was building out territory strategies based on clients that we knew were most likely to renew.

And so we were looking at not just the basics, right? Like how many, how many users were active, what was the level of engagement. We were looking at how, like, which [00:59:00] industries were most likely to renew, which revenue bans were most likely to renew, and were they renewing? or were they renewing with their, you know, whatever, 3% increase, whatever the, the annual increase was?

Were they upselling to other programs? Like mm-hmm. , where was the majority of our renewal revenue coming from? And then that became our criteria for like top tier intro meetings. So I could, I can see the flywheel, like I can buy into that. I just spoke with the head of sales, an awesome company that looks at some of that stuff.

And yeah, it also, you could also look at what companies hired more people in the department that your product lives in as well, right? So like, if you’re selling a marketing product, a company that brought on more headcount in that department and, and there’s other things that involve with that. But like I’ve seen [01:00:00] headcount.

Being like, geez, if, if not the single top, like a top two or top three indicator of a lot, like with intent, all of that. Mm-hmm. renewals as well. I build a lot of trigger campaigns on things like count increase. So yeah. Let, let’s take a step back to the, the, the trigger campaigns. Cuz we, we spoke about writing the perfect email and having, understanding everything, hiring the perfect person.

But if you’re sending everything to the out of business company, and I give an extreme example to prove the point, it doesn’t matter. Right? So like I C P I C, what, what are your thoughts on icp? What does it, what does it mean to you? And not just the acronym coming all the way back to one of the first conversations we had.

I think the whole conversation was, Down a rabbit hole. , what does an ICP mean? Well, this is, these are relevant tangents. Now, , they’re, they’re, I’m just, just giving us a [01:01:00] hard time. ICP is super important. Like, what does it mean to me? What a weird vein. Ideal customer profile. Ideal consumer. Your company.

Okay. So let, let me answer this a different way. So I view my ideal customer as my financial buyer, but like, that’s not obviously the only person in the account map, especially well from an account level. Let’s talk about it to start, like, like the accounts you focus on and then, and then we could go in and find the persona before you reach out to the cfo.

Yeah, I think I’ve, I’ve focused less on a, like, account-based ICP work. Like you obviously have to have the basics, like they have to have at least a thousand employees or we know that if they don’t have at least a billion dollars in revenue, they’re probably not at a complexity level that would justify this or whatever it is.

Like, I, I definitely think there are those baselines. Isn’t there nuances there, like [01:02:00] isn’t it people that have a million dollars that have a head of marketing roll up or something? It’s that like, that’s where I like to. Like focus less time on those account based ones. Sure. And more on the like persona based trigger ones.

Okay. That it’s like, and they are in financial services and they have a C F O that has been in seat for one year or a less, and their right c e o just announced that they were going to publish their first CSR report. Right. And then you’re building in these like layers of nuance. And the reason I like doing that so much is because while hyper-personalization mm-hmm.

is important, like I think there’s a real argument to be made for a balance of hyper-personalization, like quantity, quality approach. And I think that sometimes teams like leading edge teams can go too far where they’re like, every single email has to be hyper-personalized and I need to spend an [01:03:00] hour researching before I write any email.

And it’s just like Jesus, like. Just build in your niches and like, so maybe only nine people are gonna build it, be in that campaign, but they’re like nine people who you are 100% certain. You’re messaging about CFOs new and c that are responsible for financing and new CSR program for their CEO in the financial services space.

Like, you know that that messaging is going to be highly relevant to them. I love it. So, so essentially we, we almost talked over each other. I understand exactly where you’re at. A thousand people could buy your product. That’s your I C P, who you reach out to is which ones of those thousand have people moving, people happening, people needing people, whatever else people do that causes that that, that your company determines.

that could track happening. So, [01:04:00] so, okay. Of that a hundred, yeah. 4,050 of them. You don’t even need to say anything crazy. Right? Like you could just say, Hey, I feel you , like, yeah. Like you just lost 13% of your workforce, but you miraculously gained around to funding. You’re such a small group. I’m gonna just say this.

What’s happening here? Well, and like, I, I think when it comes to like, we’re talking about startups and we’re talking about scaling, right? And I like, I think in the view of getting funding, it often becomes so much of a conversation around like, look at our tam. Look at our tam. Cause you want that huge tam to be attractive.

That gets you the money, but it doesn’t get you the sales. Correct. But people I think like forget sometimes when they pivot back to internal conversations to be like, just because they’re in your tam. doesn’t mean that they are like your most qualified [01:05:00] prospects, and just because they are qualified prospects does not mean they are ideal.

And I, I think it’s like creating this funnel between like everybody that could buy, folks that are most qualified, most probable to buy, and like, who’s going to buy from you right now? Like, who’s gonna buy with the, the fastest sales cycle at the, the, you know, best price point without negotiating and dragging it on.

And that’s who early stage. You need to put like extra bets on that. That brings up such an interesting point because there’s this there’s this duality like what, what, what an early stage founder puts in front of an I. is something geared to sell for an investment. They’re gonna make it juicy. They’re gonna make their traction juicy.

They’re gonna make, and, and hopefully it’s real. But they’re gonna make it look as good as possible. Pull the metrics that look as good as possible. It’s real as, as I hear about people like Elizabeth Holmes and others, right? Like, [01:06:00] and, and, and I can only imagine the people we don’t hear about, right? Cuz it’s just not because it’s harder to do the work than it is to not.

And that’s just an unfortunate fact. But they also put in their market I, I’m selling, I have shoes. How many people have feet? , right? That’s the first one. And but the serviceable one. How many people have feet that are men? Come on now. Like, that’s not enough. Okay. A little bit. When in reality, so, so, so cool.

Like understood that you have to do that, but you can’t take those same ideas and bring it internal. You have to have a heart to heart with yourself or your team and say, okay, we got it now let’s do it the right way. Right? Mm-hmm. . . Isn’t that interesting, those dualities? It is. It is. I also am realizing that we are like, yeah, 30 minutes over.

Probably li like literally we are 20 minutes over. Ty like [01:07:00] typical predictable with, with us talking. I’m, I sent, I sent you a note. I didn’t hear back. Did you really? Did you se Slack Me? I texted you. Do you have many times, 15 minutes to go over or hard stop ? I have over like now 25 minutes over.

No, I have a, I have a, I have a call pass. Okay. So Leslie, I’m gonna have to have you on again. This has been tremendous. So today we spoke about getting that i c fine tune some of the challenges that founders have with not your first hires. Making sure your first hires are doing things the right way and making it easy.

Books. Books, not business books. wine, rearranging books on a Friday, going on vacation, vacation, finding books. We can make this podcast arced into, into any which way cuz we’ve spoken about so much . I, I would love to, to have you back, Leslie, I think, [01:08:00] I think we’re, we’re getting somewhere really cool and I really appreciate your time.

This is a great conversation. Thank you for going down the, the rabbit holes with me cuz I, I really enjoy these types of conversations where we can go deep where it makes sense to go deep. I couldn’t agree more. And for those that are listening, thank you for coming along to revenue Today. If you liked what you heard, give us a like, share with some friends.

Have some more people come. This is Leslie Vanette. And I’m Jared Robin. Whoa. Another great episode of Revenue Today. For show notes, links and mentions, visit revenue today.live for all my friends in the Rev Genius community. Thank you. It’s been awesome to spend this time with. Please DM me any feedback and ideas in our Slack channel or on LinkedIn.

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